View source for UI meeting 1 (6th June)


<div class="simplebox"><span style='color:#FF0000'>'''Meeting outcome summary'''</span>

Current priority is to give LimeSurvey's interface a structure - i.e. given LS2 "engine", how do we build a "cockpit" that will expose the engine's features in an understandable, logical way? '''Holger agreed to receive e-mails from everyone, with description of possible User interactions with LimeSurvey''', from which a structure of the interface will be created. Note this structure is purely semantic, not referring to graphical interface or HTML markup. '''This will be our starting point in developing a LS2 interface.'''

Survey/Assignment concepts, though powerful, may seem confusing to most new users. Certain steps (e.g. Workflows/Wizards) should be taken to eradicate confusion and educate the users about these concept, when they need it.

Other topics include creating mockups of workflows and designing wizards for beginner users.</div>

==Meeting Log==

===-Introductions===

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! [freenode-info] if you're at a conference and other people are having trouble connecting, please mention it to staff: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp: #limesurvey-ui

! macduy sets mode +tck ls2
# The topic is 'LimeSurvey UI Meeting' (set by macduy)

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<div class="simplebox"> Mazi|away is now known as Mazi

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* El-Matador-69 * I hope you on't mind, if I listen your conversations
* amit8-88 * not at all Josef
* holch * Just one thing before we start: can I save this chat somehow?
* macduy * umm, you can do a copy+paste
* holch * So that I wont have to write stuff down...
* dqminh * holch: sure. BUt what are you using ?
* macduy * but don't worry, I'll do it on post on the wiki
* dqminh * I'm logging already
* holch * OK, that should be enough.

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* jaycburton * There we go
* holch * @Matador: the more the better.
* macduy * let's start :)
* holch * OK, I just wanted to give you a short idea of what I do.
* holch * I am a consultant in market research, specialized on ebusiness.
* holch * I am working on improving websites, by analyzing users evaluation.
* El-Matador-69 * k - thx
* macduy * thanks for your interest in LS2!
* amit8-88 * great!!
* holch * We do this or via onsite intercept surveys (thats why I am interested in LS) or personal indepth interviews in a studio (usability lab)
* holch * What I notice a lot in open source software, despite often being a very good alternative to comercial stuff, it is often lacking in design and usability.

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===-Impressions of LS2===

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* holch * What I have seen from macduys mock ups, I think LS2 will not lack in the graphic design area.
* holch * So that is already a good thing.
* holch * But what often happens when a lot of people work on a project is that the information structure can get messed up.
* macduy * yep, so would you agree LS2 needs more work on structure and presentation?
* holch * That is not a fault of the designer or the developers, it is just a normal thing.
* holch * Well, I was really looking forward to LS2 (quite a while now) and when the alpha was available I installed it.
* macduy * please describe your impressions as a first time LS2 user
* holch * Despite that it doesn't have many functions yet, I liked what I saw. However, I really got confused with navigation etc. So I thought, why not start now to give it a more logical structure? Because when I as quite inet and software savy guy get confused, what about others?
* amit8-88 * ok
* holch * Well, I wrote quite a long post about my impressions.
* holch * First thing was, that there are many similiar "concepts" that might be confusing.
* amit8-88 * can you point me to the post ?
* amit8-88 * sorry I did not read it yet
* holch * Like Dashboard and Home, Administration and einstellungen.
* macduy * amit8-88: http://www.limesurvey.org/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,105/func,view/catid,11/id,27466/lang,en/
* amit8-88 * thanks macduy :)
* macduy * so the suggestion would be to merge Dashboard, Home and Administration into 1 "tab"?
* holch * So, as you are still at the beginning I thought it would be important to define a little bit the structure.
* macduy * sure, please elaborate
* holch * I think we should talk about what a user would expect when he logs in. Just a normal user, not the admin.
* holch * And this is nothing that I can decide...
* holch * We might discuss it among the developers, but we could also ask "normal" users.
* amit8-88 * El-Matador-69: can you help us on this ?
* El-Matador-69 * I can just write mit 50cents
* holch * For example, when I log onto a tool like this, I would expect to see the last surveys I have worked on, including the number of respondents that have started, and the ones that have finished.
* holch * Wait: the surveys I have worked on and the ones that are in field.
* jaycburton * Sort of a snapshot
* El-Matador-69 * survey overview
* holch * To give a quick start to the most important day to day work.
* macduy * so, to generalize, a customized "Home" page
* holch * Administration, User-Admin, Panel, etc. is something you usually don't need every day.
* holch * Well, macduy, it doesn't nesessarily need to be customizable, though that would be ideal, especially for advanced users.
* holch * But we should have something on the dashboard by default, that we would consider the most important aspects for the majority.
* macduy * for new users, the dashboard would be built for them automatically
* macduy * when they want/feel like it, they can customize it to their needs
* holch * Everyone else, who is more experienced and knows what he needs already can customize it.
* holch * Because if you don't do a lot of research, you might not know what is important for you, there we could help with our experience.
* holch * There might be some out there, for who it would not fit, but we will have to live with it.
* holch * But to give the whole LS2 a nice logical structure I would need to know what is planned.
* macduy * so, main topic now: Structure of LS2
* macduy * meaning how are individual actions a user can take structured within the navigation of LS2
* holch * I know, there might be a lot more to come, but I think you guys have already loads of stuff planned and in the back of your head which might be implemented only in one or 2 years...
* holch * Yes. Programing the different tools and functions is one thing, getting them together for a logical work flow and navigation is another.
* holch * LimeSurvey will have a lot of functions, I assume, based on LS 1.8...
* macduy * let's take a practical example: you raised the question of Assignments before
* holch * yes.
* macduy * but now you understand?

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===-Assignments===

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* holch * assignment is such a thing that I just don't get.
* macduy * ah :)
* holch * No, not really.
* macduy * so there we stumble on 1 important aspect
* macduy * hiding of programmer's logic in presentation
* holch * Yes. This might be due to me being used to other software as well. But I have seen in the answers to the post, that I am not the only one having problems with assignments.
* macduy * as programmers, we should know how assignments work and how they interact with other parts
* macduy * but as users, should they be introduced to the concept too
* holch * Yes, that could be a solution.
* macduy * or should the programmers code a layer for the users, so that they do not need to know about "assignments", at least not straight away?
* holch * Well, what do you need the assignments exactly for? I assume I have a survey ready to start.
* holch * So where do the assignments come in?
* macduy * Assignments allow you to use a single survey many times
* macduy * without losing track of the previous times you used the survey
* holch * OK.
* holch * This sounds an interesting feature.
* Mazi * arent assignments also used to restrict access like with tokens in LS1?
* macduy * yes
* holch * This means I start a survey, run it for 2 weeks, stop it.
* dqminh * yah, assignments are mainly used to control they way users access the survey
* holch * Then i give it a new "assignment" and the same survey runs a second time and answers are saved in the same database, together with the old answers?
* holch * dqminh, what does this mean?
* Mazi * so if assignments are used for several different issues I think we should separate them instead of having one big assignment overview, what do you think?
* holch * You see, it is already confusing among us, somehow...
* dqminh * holch: it meant you can assign specific users for a survey, the activate and deactivate time of the survey.

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* holch * So it surely takes some time for a normal user to understand it. If there is no way around it, fine. But if we could make it easier for the user, the better.
* jasebo * hi everyone
* dqminh * hi jason ;)
* Mazi * hi jason
* jasebo * sorry I'mlate
* holch * Ok, dqminh, this is an important part!
* macduy * hi Jason
* jaycburton * Hi Jason
* holch * Hi Jason, no problem.
* amit8-88 * hi Jason
* macduy * the survey results actually retain the assignment they belong to
* Mazi * regarding the workflow I think after having created a survey one next logical step can be to ask the user"do you want to restrict access to your survey" and then the user is redirect to the next screen to set assignments
* macduy * so think of it as if you are collecting different SETS of data using 1 survey
* holch * Well, I don't know if this is the right way, Mazi.
* macduy * creating survey is like drafting it on a piece of paper
* macduy * creating assignments is making copies of it and then sending it out to people
* holch * We should get to it a different way: What kind of surveys can u imagine and what are the characteristics of those surveys?
* holch * I am doing a lot of onsite surveys, recruiting respondets directly from a website by a layer poping up, asking every 10th (or whatever the contact rate is set to) user.
* jasebo * I take you all read my post on the forum re: assignments?
* macduy * I believe LS2 aims to cover all possible kinds of surveys? :P
* holch * macduy: Look, this is a good concept...
* holch * Right.
* holch * This is why we should start there.
* holch * What kind of surveys are possible...
* holch * @Jason: Sorry, I didn't...
* jasebo * trying to find it.. it was an explanation of how assignments were originally intended
* jasebo * by the mitre team
* macduy * simple polls, large surveys....
* macduy * it could well work as an interface for entering data.
* Mazi * Jason: http://www.limesurvey.org/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,105/func,view/catid,11/id,27466/lang,en/
* holch * Macduy: But what is the difference of a simple poll and a large survey, basically nothing, except for the length.
* macduy * exactly
* jasebo * http://www.limesurvey.org/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,105/func,view/catid,11/id,27466/lang,en/#28197
* macduy * we should make no assumptions about survey nature
* Mazi * I think it would be nice to have a workflow chart in the wiki showing the current workflow. this way everyone has a clear overview about the current status and we can think about how/where to add addiotnal features like assignments, survey settings, ...
* holch * Thanks Jason, I will try to read it later.
* Mazi * the new workflow should then cover each possible kind of survey
* macduy * holch: the idea is to provide a fairly linear workflow for newbie users
* macduy * e.g.: http://www.marketcircle.com/images/v12/dl/tenways/4.png
* holch * One thing could be to create predefined scenarios for beginners, but I never liked this very much...
* Mazi * "linear", that's what we should aim to
* macduy * hehe, why not?
* jasebo * I dislike being too prescriptive
* Mazi * together with a clear and widersprüchlich
* macduy * I agree that LS2 must absolutely remain a sandbox tool
* Mazi * sorry, "clear and non-ambiguous maning"
* Mazi * *naming
* Mazi * ambiguous
* holch * What we shouldn't do is to make LS2 too simple/restricted.
* macduy * yet, for new users, they will be likely to look for "wizards" and other linear, step-by-step worflow
* macduy * with low branching:
* holch * It is aimed to be a leader in survey creating and administration I guess...
* jasebo * hey... we could have this little pop-up paperclip thing that says "It looks like you're trying to write a survey"
* macduy * :P

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===-Wizards===

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* macduy * say we have these 2 scenarios:
* macduy * Scenario #1: New User
* macduy * 1) new user logs in, sees his homepage, with a couple of links "What would you like to do"
* macduy * 2) He clicks on the, say "create a survey"
* macduy * 3) he
* macduy * 3) he's taken to the survey creation page, with an indicator of his process and what's about to come next
* macduy * (bit like the installer, with numbered steps)
* amit8-88 * Survey Wizard ?
* macduy * basically
* macduy * At each step, he has a list of choices he can do
* macduy * Scenario #2: Experienced user
* holch * This could help for really, really new users.
* Mazi * macduy, that's exactly what I'm thinking of (#1)
* macduy * Mazi: yep
* Mazi * holch, I guess about 80% of our users use limesurvey for just 1-2 surveys
* macduy * but we the idea is to code it on-top, not as part of the code
* Mazi * so there are lots of newbies
* jasebo * macduy: spot on
* macduy * What would an experienced user do, I imagine,
* macduy * is to hop straight to the "Admin" page
* macduy * and do everything himself
* holch * Oh, good to know. Then easy to use is even more important.
* jasebo * the biggest complaint about LS1 is the difficulty in understanding the UI at first
* holch * Wait, wait! the admin page...
* macduy * the hardest bit, I would say, be the transition in between. How do we teach the user to realize how he can reproduce the steps in the Wizard, without using the wizard?
* macduy * I say "Admin" but I'd like to rename it ;)
* macduy * to something like "Manage"
* holch * Yes, LS1 is confusing, because every level looks the same...
* jasebo * "Survey Management"
* jasebo * holch: it seemed like a good idea at the time :)
* macduy * please look at: http://i3.campaignmonitor.com/uploads/images/screenshots/resell/pay.png
* Mazi * this survey manager has to cover all the steps of the "create new survey" wizzard
* holch * Jason, I think the levels aren't that bad, it is just difficult to distinguish between a group, a question, a survey,... Levels are not clear emediately...
* macduy * forget the tabs, but note the progress indicator and the clean heading, with just 4 links
* Mazi * think of a newbie user who wantes to change questions after having passed the wizzard
* macduy * ah, yeah :/
* Mazi * will he use the wizzard again or use the "survey management" for his changes
* Mazi * ?
* holch * I think a wizard would be a solution, but if the standard "survey procedure" is simple enough, no one needs a wizard...
* jasebo * the wizards should be intended for absolute newbies only
* holch * I think we should spend our time on making the survey creation and survey management as simple as possible and every user will be able to use it immediately.
* macduy * Mazi: emost probably a new wizard
* jasebo * if you need a wizard after learning software, there's something wrong with the software
* Mazi * what about having a wizzard for the first set up with clearly names steps and later the user can jump to each step using the survey manager?
* Mazi * * "clearly named steps"
* holch * So what are the "normal steps":
* jasebo * has anyone here ever used the "context sensitive help" in LS1?
* Mazi * never
* amit8-88 * nope
* macduy * ah, good idea!
* holch * Creating a survey with questions, filters, quota, etc.
* Mazi * we should use tooltips at LS2
* holch * this would be step 1
* macduy * LS2 has tooltips
* macduy * to what extent they are helpful, haven't noticed
* holch * Then you want someone to take part in the survey, and there the assignments come in I guess.
* macduy * the wizard can explain at each step what's going on and how the user can later on do these steps himself
* holch * You either want to send the survey to a restricted group of people via email, you recruite on a website (without restriction)
* El-Matador-69 * yes
* macduy * or both :)
* macduy * => 2 assignments
* holch * Both what?
* Mazi * I agree: "the wizard can explain at each step what's going on and how the user can later on do these steps himself"
* macduy * e.g. "Step 3: adding questions - you are now adding questions. you may return to this survey and edit the questions at any time, by doing blah blah blah"
* holch * Ahh, ok. 2 assignments. Does this really happen in the real world?
* macduy * holch: I guess that very unlikely
* macduy * but there will be companies that would consider it vital
* jasebo * holch: what do you mean?
* holch * Why?
* macduy * e.g.
* macduy * a company has 2 departments
* macduy * each using the same survey
* macduy * they don
* macduy * don't want results from both departments to mix together, for obvious reasons
* macduy * hence they create two assignments.
* holch * OK.
* macduy * I'd say that's the power behind assignments
* holch * Makes sense. We would have created just a copy of the survey or would have added a variable to the survey url, that we would have saved in the database for analysis.
* macduy * exactly
* macduy * but the same way I have explained how assignments work
* macduy * we need to do it for all the users
* macduy * teach time what assignments are, at the right time, when they need it
* holch * Yes, OK. Assignments are a good idea. Question is, will it be used by a lot of people without long explanations.
* jasebo * the name is bad
* holch * Exactly, if we need to teach them, something is wrong.
* jasebo * assignments are what you get from your teacher at school
* jasebo * :)
* macduy * :D
* holch * Hahaha.
* macduy * the name is definitely confusing
* amit8-88 * :P
* jasebo * but the concept is good
* holch * The problem with assignments is, that they cover many different aspects.
* macduy * ?
* holch * So it is hard to find one word for it...
* macduy * hehe
* macduy * I
* amit8-88 * yep
* macduy * I'd summarize it as: survey reuse
* amit8-88 * Share Survey
* macduy * :S
* jasebo * I think of the survey creation as "what", and the assignments as "who"
* holch * I could use assignments for different "waves" of a survey, I could use it for specific "groups" of respondents...
* jasebo * distribution?
* macduy * yet that is still not quite precise :/
* holch * Why not avoiding the assignments for the user and keep it a developer thing?
* macduy * I think of "Surveys" as piece of paper and "Assignments" as people going around with those pieces of paper :)
* macduy * holch: that's what I've been considering too
* holch * And give them different concepts in different situations?
* macduy * it could be a new wizard
* holch * What about invitations?
* macduy * "Would you like to reuse on of your surveys?"
* holch * It is basically what you do.
* Mazi * can we split up the assigments into it's single functions? or is this deeply tied in the code?
* macduy * Mazi: what do you mean?
* holch * Or you have to go one step back and rethink what a survey is.
* holch * Because right now we are talking about a questionnaire, when we talk about surveys.
* jasebo * assignments involves 1) Assignment groups, and 2) Applying those groups to a survey
* macduy * 3) public/private
* Mazi * well, there are different usages for assignments (as far as I got it). why not splitting this up into single features with different names instead of having it put together at "assigments"?
* holch * Assignment = survey, Survey = questionnaire.
* holch * Survey= once, questionnaire = reusable.
* macduy * hmmm
* macduy * I see where you're going, but let's see
* holch * because at the moment we are always talking about surveys. But the first step of the survey is creating the questionnaire...
* macduy * yes
* amit8-88 * yeah
* holch * at least in LS, before you have to design the survey.
* holch * So may be we should separate Questionnaire building and survey taking/admin. Just an idea.
* macduy * well, that's what we have right now :)
* macduy * except Questionnaires are called "Surveys" and Surveys are called "Assignments"
* holch * Exactly...
* holch * But if you look at it, surveys are the assignments.
* jasebo * I've missed the questionnaire/survey discussion
* jasebo * are you saying a "questionnaire" is a collection of questions, and a survey is the application of those questions to a group of people?
* holch * Exactly.
* Mazi * jasebo, log: http://pastebin.com/m6147fc53
* holch * You can easily use the same questionnaire twice, but you hardly can do the same survey again (other time, other participants, etc.)
* jasebo * I see

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===-Survey/Assignment Workflow===

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* El-Matador-69 * I like the phrase "survey structure"
* holch * So there are 3 important parts of LS:
* holch * Questionnaire 'programming'
* holch * Survey taking
* holch * Online reporting
* holch * In the future maybe something like panel administration...
* jasebo * panel administration fits in with the assignment groups
* holch * Well, I think assigments are more like chosing a group of respondents from a panel.
* holch * But there is more to panel administration than that.
* jasebo * well, panels could be expanded later :)
* jasebo * but that's part of the reason for the assignment/assignment group paradigm
* holch * I know, thats why i said in the future...;)
* macduy * seems like panels can be built on thop of that
* holch * And now that I have understood what assignments are for, I am totally in favor of them.
* holch * But just not as "assignments" ;)
* macduy * "Targets"?
* jasebo * so a survey is the combination of a questionnaire, and an assignment?
* holch * But a normal user will have a hard time with it. I am sure an intelligent user will eventually find out what assigments are, but it is not immediately clear.
* jasebo * "Tokens"? :-P
* holch * Hmm.
* holch * hahahaha.
* macduy * lol
* dqminh * :p
* Mazi * I like the "what" and "who" idea. could be a basement for the workflow
* holch * I never got the token thing as well...
* macduy * :D
* macduy * you're not alone ;)
* jasebo hides face in shame
* holch * So how to others do this.
* macduy * is everyone opposed to the name "Assignemnts"?
* holch * Jason: you don't have to be ashamed for having created such a powerful survey tool.
* macduy * I dunno, it makes sense to say "I assign this survey to these bunch of people"
* holch * But now I think it is time bring it out of the geek corner... :)
* holch * Yes, macduy, when you use this sentence it makes sense.
* jasebo * macduy: I think the Mitre people thought of it more like when user x logged in, they'd find they had a new assignment to fill out a survey
* macduy * ahhhh
* macduy * I see now
* jasebo * so it was an assignment from the survey participants view
* holch * jasebo: don't confuse me...
* macduy * holch: everything you understand is still right ;)
* macduy * it's just so happens that you can view it from both angles
* jasebo * yes
* holch * I know, I was just joking.
* macduy * which for me is a good enough reason to retain the word "assignment"
* holch * And I totally agree that we need those assignments. We just have to fit them into LS UI, so that it is clear on first sight (at least for 80-90%) of the users, what they are for.
* macduy * [ ;) I also looked at the LS2 database, where the word "assignment" appears about 20 times :D ]
* jasebo * I was just thinking about that.. thinking.. we could change the name any time we wanted
* macduy * holch: I agree. Assignments are powerful but as with any powerful tool, we need to teach people how to use it ;)
* jasebo * then I thought.. oh.. all the models, etc. all contain "assignment"
* macduy * it's not a problem to expose a different name for the end-user
* holch * Well, I wish maze a lot of fun on the new "what are assignments" forum...
* macduy * it's only a question of the programmers being able to remember that "Target" is actually Assignment in the code etc..
* dqminh * retaining the word "assignment" is ok for me, however imo the current workflow of setting up survey and assignment separately is not intuitive
* macduy * not at al
* jasebo * workflow wiki page would be a good idea
* holch * dqminh: I think it is good to have them separated somehow, but they must integrate with each other.
* macduy * as mentioned earlier
* jasebo * there's some branching involved with assignments
* macduy * this should be taken by the wizard
* jasebo * if you want to 'assign' your survey to a group of users, you need that group to be created first
* holch * Branching?
* holch * exactly.
* macduy * jasebo: nothing ajax can't sort out ;)
* dqminh * holch: yah, you probably want it to be separate when you are maintaining existing survey, not creating new one.
* holch * Where would the group be created?
* holch * dqminh: exactly.
* jasebo * that's the "assignment groups"
* holch * OK.
* jasebo * so many users would want to import a list of people at this stage
* jasebo * others would want to choose a gruop they'd already created
* jasebo * and the rest might just choose to make it public
* holch * Sorry I do not have the LS2 installation on this computer. I thought I have, but I think I installed it on my work computer.
* macduy * holch: demo2.limesurvey.org
* macduy * user/pass: test/test
* Mazi * jasebo, all these options should be put into a workflow chart
* Mazi * ...for the wizzard...
* holch * thanks!
* macduy * btw, previous work: http://www.docs.limesurvey.org/tiki-index.php?page=Interaction+Design+Mockups&structure;=LimeSurvey+Development
* Mazi * ...after that we ca think of how to map each wizzard step at the survey manager
* macduy * yep
* macduy * but I hope you'd agree with me
* Mazi * ah, never seen that wiki page. will be a good start
* macduy * the wizard should be coded on top of LS2, i.e. it will only relate parts that are already there, together
* macduy * so what we really need to concentrate on now
* macduy * is to define the LS2 navigation structure

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===-Semantic/Interface Structure===

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* macduy * which brings us to the original topic :)
* holch * yes.
* holch * :)
* macduy * currently, the presentation code is horrid
* macduy * it uses an awful lot of repetition
* jasebo * macduy: what do you mean by presentation code?
* macduy * HTML markup
* holch * What I see is that there are different "concepts" that we will need to define and structure: Questionnaires, surveys, assignments, respondents, reporting.
* macduy * e,.g. one page starts with <h1>, another with <h2>...
* holch * This is for the day to day.
* jasebo * macduy: I see
* holch * and then we have stuff like Administration, etc., that we should separate somehow.
* dqminh * regarding the HTML markup, we could use elements to separate them, but again, that not the main topic I think :p
* macduy * also, except for the heading, you may notice that most navigational elements lack consistency
* macduy * there is no "Secondary Navigation" element. We only have the top header ("Primary Navigation") and that's it
* holch * Well, but discussion about primary and secondary navigation is already a step ahead.
* macduy * :) hehe, sorry
* macduy * just some things to keep in mind
* holch * We should first define, what we need to structure.
* holch * What navigations elements will there be.
* macduy * so, as you said previously
* holch * That#s what I wanted to hear from every member of the team. What needs to be in the navigation: just a little brainstorming.
* macduy * i.e.:
* holch * Send me an email with everything that you want to have in the navigation.
* holch * Unstructured!
* macduy * 1) Identify different user concepts (i.e. entities such as: Survey, Assignment, User),
* holch * holger@rothemund.org
* macduy * 2) Identify actions how the user can interact with them
* Mazi * navigation: survey manager, assignments, general survey settings, logout
* holch * Every part of LS2, could be future things too.
* macduy * we need to take a step back
* macduy * look at the engine, see what it can do and built a cockpit out of that
* holch * exactly.
* macduy * is that what you mean, holch?
* holch * yes.
* macduy * ok
* macduy * we'll write a wiki article and post you the link
* jasebo * Navigation: Dashboard/Home | Surveys | Questionnaires | Distribution | People | Settings | Logout
* holch * No wiki! sometimes colaboration can destroy everything, because all will sooner or later adapt stuff of others...
* macduy * :O
* holch * Just an email from everyone who would like to send one.
* macduy * are you sure about this?
* Mazi * k, let's all send holch an email
* holch * Then I bring the stuff together and then we can put it on the wiki. But the collection of ideas often is more fruitful, when it is first done alone.
* amit8-88 * ok
* jasebo * I think a wiki page for workflows would be a good thing to have
* holch * Later we have to work together to bring it all togheter.
* jasebo * not for collaboration, but as a collection point for workflows
* macduy * OK, another summary:
* holch * And try to be abstract. Don't think too much "limesurveyish"
* macduy * :D that'll be hard
* macduy * anyway, summarize:
* jasebo * holch: limesurvey is my life
* holch * I know. But I never said it won't hurt...
* holch * :)
* jasebo * holch: will you send an email to the dev list asking for comments, or do you just want it from us here?
* holch * you can put it on the dev list. I was wondering if we shouldn't involve some normal users as well?
* macduy * they've got the wiki
* jasebo * post in the forum?
* jasebo * run a survey?
* holch * I was thinking of collecting some items/elements that we would need in LS2, in everyones own words. And you guys are probably so involved with the LS wording and thinking, that we won't get much out of the box thinking, those not much new...
* holch * no offence... ;-)
* holch * Just trying to optimize, while we still can. And LS2 is a very good oportunity.
* macduy * LS1 has lots of features
* jasebo * I agree, would be great to get users input
* holch * By the way: does someone know a online card sorting tool that is any good?
* macduy * and I'm sure the wizards of LS1 here will have a long enough list of things LS2 should do ;)
* macduy * holch: ?
* holch * macduy: Don't know what card sorting is?
* holch * Or what's the "?" for?
* macduy * I'm not sure what card sorting is
* holch * It is a usability tecnicque...
* macduy * ah, just checked wikipedia
* holch * to make groups of elements.
* macduy * are you suggesting we let the users make the categorisation?
* holch * Allows you to understand a little bit better how users "think", which mental models they apply to information.
* macduy * ah, I c
* holch * Well, at least I would consider to listen to how their "brain works".
* macduy * hehe ok
* macduy * so is that what you intend to do with our e-mail suggestions?
* holch * Because it often happens that designers and developers are in their little work, where everything makes perfect sence, but users just think different.
* jasebo * holch: users are wrong
* holch * macduy: this is the first step.
* holch * Hahaha.
* macduy * ah, but would you agree that if devs/designers go towards user
* jasebo * :D
* macduy * the user should invest the effort to go our way too?
* macduy * so as to find the middle ground
* macduy * it is already hard enough for developers and designers to walk the same way
* jasebo * remember that beginner users are different to advanced users
* jasebo * and advanced users are much more like developers in their contempt for beginners
* macduy * :O
* holch * jason: yes, and this taks doesn't mean that we will use exactly what the users suggested.
* macduy * ah ok
* jasebo * and intermediate users just complain a lot
* holch * You will probably see that there are various different mental models out there.
* dqminh * holch: http://www.optimalsort.com -- is this what you need ;)

</nowiki>

===-Templating Admin Interface===

 <nowiki>
* holch * If I would have to have a guess, there are probably 3-4 main models and serveral different ones.
* holch * Yeah I know optimalsort, but they charge you... :-)
* macduy * do we want to cater for all of them :)
* dqminh * hmm, they provide free account.I'm not sure about their capabilities as I nerver used card sorting before :D
* holch * But if we can get one logical one, that makes sense, than we are lucky.
* holch * Usually those mental concepts are understood also by other users, it is just not their primary one.
* Mazi * what do you think of creating 2-3 designs for the main navigation bar and then ask for the users input which they prefer?
* holch * Mazi: this could be a good idea, but this is something we can only do in the future, when we know what has to be in the navigation and how to group the different aspects.
* Mazi * althought this is diffucult without having any functionality
* Mazi * agrre!
* holch * Well, there would have to be some functionality at least...
* macduy * the current primary goal is to establish a LS2 interface structure
* macduy * not a graphical one, but semantical one, it that makes sense :)
* macduy * save markup and pretty rounded corners for later
* holch * Exactly: because design will always be something to discuss about anyway.
* holch * Someone loves it, others don't .
* macduy * yep, and graphical presentation would go to waste if the underlying interface it is presenting is crap
* holch * Off topic: is there a plan to have a template system for LS2 (not the questionnaire templates)
* macduy * for the GUI?
* holch * yes, white label...
* holch * kind of.
* macduy * erm, I'd say no :)
* holch * OK:
* macduy * different CSS at most
* Mazi * holch, one can switch between different templates in LS2 already
* holch * For companies it would be interesting.
* macduy * holch: I see
* Mazi * althought there is no template designer, just shipped templates
* macduy * but that would be covered in CSS
* holch * Can you?
* macduy * Mazi: those are survey templates
* macduy * Mazi: they are absolutely customizable, it even has it's own template engine
* Mazi * ahh, sorry. you were talking about admin interface?
* macduy * yeah
* holch * Ahhh, survey templates are vital! LS2 templating would be something optional.
* Mazi * k, got it :)
* holch * What you really should consider is whitelabeling the online reporting.
* jasebo * ls2 admin templating would be nice, we should keep it in mind as we go
* holch * Could be a simple templating.
* dqminh * there's themes concept in Cake, but I would vote not for it in the near future.
* macduy * jasebo, holch: it's a great idea, but I'd say CSS and different images is as far as we'd want to go
* holch * Nothing major, but being able to put your logo in, having your colours...
* macduy * so, CSS :)
* holch * That would be fine.
* macduy * when you said template engine, I assumed, placing navigation in a completely different place, making it vertical, upside-down...
* holch * But for online reporting I consider it very important, when you want to get more "professional"
* macduy * online reporting.. you mean public statistics?
* holch * Macduy, I don't think this would be important.
* jasebo * macduh, dqminh: no, not the near future - but again, knowing it may happen later can affect design decisions bnow
* holch * Well, it depends on what you mean with public statistics.
* macduy * dqminh, elaborate :)
* holch * For me public statistics is not important at all.
* dqminh * elaborate about themes ? :D
* holch * I can't show survey results to everyone.
* dqminh * from what I understand, themes is a different set of views, js , css , ...
* holch * I want to have "assignments" for the access to the results.
* dqminh * so you can define completely different layouts with themes

</nowiki>

===-Online Reporting/Public Statistics===

 <nowiki>
* macduy * dqminh, I meant on public statistics ;)
* macduy * but wait, I'm confused
* macduy * holch: give examples of what you mean by "online reporting"
* macduy * it doesn't quite fit with anything I've seen so far
* holch * That's what most of other survey tools call the presentation of the survey results (and sometimes the survey progress).
* holch * E.g.: I am running a survey with n=1000 for over a month. But the client wants to see some results already after one week. I grant him access to the "online reporting" and he can get a first glimpse at the results.
* dqminh * presentation of results in LS2 is separating into public ( which is available for end users ) and admin statistics
* holch * I think if you want to go a step ahead you would need something in between.
* holch * Or can you restrict the public part to certain users?
* dqminh * we can.
* holch * Because often you can give results to the public (basically all internet users), but you don't want to give a client access to your survey administration.
* holch * so you need something to restrict public statistics.
* holch * Because "public statistics" sounds like accessible for everyone to me.
* Mazi * dqminh, there should be a password protected statistics feature for surveys not using public stats
* dqminh * jasebo: did LS1 have this feature already ? Restricting statistics to part of users ?
* Mazi * these is a feature often requested in the forum, having the ability to pass a password/login protected link to survey statistics to someone else
* Mazi * dqminh, this feature does not exist in LS1
* holch * Exactly: Just allowing access to a group of users, and only to the statistics, not the rest of LS2.
* jasebo * dqminh: not statistics specifically, just access to browsing results
* dqminh * Mazi: i see. Of course we can do that.
* holch * Reporting/statistics should be separated totally from the rest of LS2
* Mazi * great, please put it on your list :-)
* Mazi * that's what we (dqminh) are upt to
* holch * Perfect.

</nowiki>

!!!-End/Summary

 <nowiki>
* holch * Look, I will try to make up some structuring for the content, based on your input that you send me via email. Then we can discuss it and see the advantages and disadvantages of the structure, etc.
* macduy * holch, can you give us an example of what format you expect?
* Mazi * @all, what do you think about weekly LS2 UI meetings for the next weeks until we have set up the general structure?
* jasebo * agree
* holch * From your side I would prefer it to be quite open and individual. I want the view of each of you on LS (no matter if others think it is stupid). In your own (and best simple) words.
* macduy * ok
* amit8-88 * ok
* macduy * in simple, avoid using any limesurvey-related terms?
* jaycburton * Pardon my interruption. I have a little league baseball tournament game to coach in less than two hours. Can someone please email me the log once the meeting is over? TIA. And GO DIAMONDBACKS!
* holch * Give me this list of LS2 elements. Describe how you see it, how you would structure it, whatever I can get. I will try to work trough this (on an individual basis) and then I will try to join it somehow.
* macduy * Jay, np

< El-Matador-69 has disconnected (Success)
* macduy * I
* macduy * I'm copying the log onto the wiki right now as we speak :)
* jasebo * lol: cya jacyburton
* macduy * cya Jay
* holch * Later we are getting back to "colaboration". But as I said. sometimes it is better to listen to the individuals first.
* jasebo * go Diamonbacks. I'm your number one Aussie fan
* macduy * holch: be sure to play around with LS2 in the mean time too ;)

< jaycburton has disconnected ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org")
* dqminh * cya later jaycburton ;)
* amit8-88 * cya jay
* jasebo * I'm off too.. it's past midnight
* jasebo * I'm about to turn into a pumpkin
* amit8-88 * good night jasebo
* holch * Yes, I will will. I will also play with the 1.85 RC3, because we can learn a lot from the old tool.
* Mazi * bye jason
* macduy * oh noes, cye Jason
* holch * What works, what doesn't.
* holch * Good night!
* holch * I will have lunch soon... hahahaha.
* macduy * :D

< jasebo has disconnected ("flies off to the RW")
* macduy * first meetings always longer ;)
* macduy * ok, so next week, is everybody happy with timing?
* amit8-88 * yeah :)
* holch * No problem. I enjoyed it.
* Mazi * I'll see if I can attend but in general time is fine
* holch * Next week I won#t be able to make it.
* macduy * sure ;)
* holch * I'll be traveling (most probably) from Thursday to Sunday.
* Mazi * if holch is not availbe we should think about having the next meeting in 2 weeks?!
* macduy * in 2 weeks...
* holch * OK.
* macduy * depends, if there's something urgent...
* holch * Send me an reminder... ;)
* macduy * but 2 weeks is fine ;)
* macduy * I'll register this channel then
* amit8-88 * ok
* macduy * the key is "ls2"
* Mazi * macduy, will you send an email to the mailinglist about next and regular meetings?
* macduy * sure, will do next week
* holch * I will try to work a little on what you will send me as your views of LS2.
* holch * Maybe I can send some file for you to discuss.
* macduy * thanks everyone for making it and attending :)
* Mazi * macduy or holch, can someone summarize the results of this meeting?
* holch * Hahaha, not much results today, right?
* Mazi * always got for everyone just reading the docs to have some kind of conclusion
* macduy * general brainstorming :)
* holch * Have to think on how to structure this process a little more.
* macduy * lemme have a go:
* holch * Never had so many "clients" working with me on the same project...
* macduy * 1) Assignments/Survey Workflow needs work
* holch * And the users I can control better... :D
* macduy * 2) Think about Wizards and Workflows
* macduy * 3) Send holch entities of LS2 and actions they can perform
* macduy * 4) construct a semantic structure in near future
* macduy * all from me :), anyone else?

</nowiki>